Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week Carl finished off the first set of Interludes and the contents of Navani’s journal, with many questions which remain yet unanswered. This week, we return to Shallan as she resumes her interrupted journey to the Shattered Plains, in rather less congenial company than before; Tvlakv isn’t much of a substitute for Tozbek, and so far Bluth is a measly successor to Yalb.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Click on through to join the discussion.
Chapter 13: The Day’s Masterpiece
Point of View: Shallan
Setting: The Frostlands
Symbology: Pattern, Shalash
IN WHICH wagons roll; stupidity is explored; a slave wagon is converted to a lady’s carriage; feet are cleaned; hints of spren purposes are revealed; memories are avoided; grief is accepted; human motivations are considered and found wanting.
Quote of the Week:
“You came to me because of the Voidbringers,” Shallan said, moving closer to the trunk, bloodied rag forgotten in her hand.
“Yes. Patterns… we… us… Worry. One was sent. Me.”
“Why to me?”
“Because of lies.”
She shook her head. “I don’t understand.”
He buzzed in dissatisfaction. “You. Your family.”
“You watched me with my family? That long ago?”
“Shallan. Remember…”
Again those memories. This time, not a garden seat, but a sterile white room. Her father’s lullaby. Blood on the floor.
No.
She turned away and began cleaning her feet again.
“I know… little of humans,” Pattern said. “They break. Their minds break. You did not break. Only cracked.”
She continued her washing.
“It is the lies that save you,” Pattern said. “The lies that drew me.”
I can’t help feeling that there’s something hidden in this conversation. (Other than, “Shallan? Cracked? Nah… can’t be.”) The Cryptics, as a group, sent one representative to the Physical realm because of the imminent return of the Voidbringers. He chose Shallan because of lies—but what lies? Something to do with her family, that long ago? Before the time we’ve seen in the flashbacks, even before the time hinted at when Lady Davar discovered that Shallan was “one of them”? It has to have been at least seven years ago—about the time that Dalinar and Gavilar found the Parshendi, about the time that the death-rattles began, about the time Szeth was named Truthless, about the time Kaladin tried and failed to save a child’s life, about the time Adolin inherited his Shardplate. What was going on in Shallan’s family that drew Pattern to this young daughter of a relatively obscure family in rural Jah Keved? Seven years ago was momentous, for some reason.
Commentary: Before diving into the chapter, we should note that this begins Part Two, “Winds’ Approach,” which apparently will focus on Shallan, Kaladin, Adolin, and Sadeas. I’d hazard a guess that the title refers to the way the plot and character development are building through this section; the storm is coming, but it’s not here yet. Obviously that’s true of the Everstorm, but it’s also true of Shallan’s character growth, as well as Kaladin’s.
This is a hard chapter to discuss. Not a lot happens, and yet there are so many little things. It’s a transition; it’s the first stirrings of the approach of the wind. The next phase of the journey begins. I’m guessing—but only guessing—that the title refers to the drawing Shallan finds in the trunk.
The epigraph (which I’m sure we’ll talk about in greater extent along with the next set of Interludes) is veeeerrry interesting in light of last week’s discussion. Warform is “claimed by the gods?” Huh. Please, discuss what this means…
The chat between Shallan and Bluth nicely sets up their future relationship—what there is of it, anyway. I got rather a kick out of this initial conversation, so much that I almost made it the QOTW. “Stop insulting my stick!” indeed. That she only thought it instead of saying it shows a certain amount of growth on her part, as well as good fortune; her restraint might be the only reason she survived the events to come. Her flippant commentary on how “stupidity is a function of one’s surroundings” may have been slightly incomprehensible to Bluth, but it was also intriguing enough to draw him into actual conversation for a few sentences.
A couple of times in this chapter, we get more blatant examples of how Shallan shuts out the intrusion of unpleasant memories. This will, IIRC, develop throughout the book as she deliberately shuts her mind off whenever something triggers a memory she’s chosen to block. There are also hints right here that Pattern is not going to let her get away with it forever. (Frankly, as much as I value the literary device, there were times in this book when I wanted Pattern to turn solid and stab this girl with a few of his sharp lines when she blocked her memories…)
Speaking of Pattern—he has come a long way in a relatively short time; it’s only a short time ago that he was bumbling about like a renegade roomba, bumping into everything and spinning uselessly about in the middle of the room. Now, perhaps due to the shocks of the past few days, he seems to be regaining both his memories and his sense of purpose. He also gains serious insight into character—spren, nature, and human:
“I will not stop vibrating. The wind will not stop blowing. You will not stop drawing.”
The chapter finally leaves us with the question still hanging: why would anyone choose to murder the one person who has the single best chance of figuring out how and why the Voidbringers are returning? Shallan’s answer may be true—to control knowledge and profit from the coming apocalypse—but I think there’s still more to it. I’m not sure any of the other possibilities are better, though; while greed is a pretty lame reason to destroy the mind behind all the research, so is over-confidence (Taravangian), religious fanaticism (Sons of Honor), and general destruction of all Surgebinders (or whatever Nalan’s motive is). Don’t any of these people know anything about working together?
Stormwatch: This is the same day as the last time we saw Shallan—the day she woke up in Tvlakv’s camp.
Sprenspotting: Painspren appear several times—well, duh, considering the state of Shallan’s feet. But at least there aren’t any rotspren. The really significant note in this chapter is Pattern’s rather chilling statement at the end:
“Spren… spren of him. They come.”
Clearly, spren of Odium. Could it be that the spren of Odium were becoming more plentiful already seven years ago? I… have some thoughts, but they’re a bit hard to formalize, and they depend on a lot of speculation and assumption about spren, Unmade, the Oathpact, Taln, and Venli. Maybe the comments can shake it out.
All Creatures Shelled and Feathered: Shallan observes and considers the flora—and lack thereof—of the Frostlands. I’m reminded that not all of Roshar is as inhospitable as the Shattered Plains, even though their barrenness is my strongest impression of the planet. The way Shallan thinks of the limited vegetation in the Frostlands, which yet appears to be much more prolific than the Plains, implies that the bits of the world she’s seen are far more lush and verdant than what she sees here.
I mention this primarily because someone recently made mention of “failed terraforming” (or something to that effect) with regard to the advent of humans on Roshar. While the Plains certainly don’t seem a pleasant place to live or grow food, the rest of the planet seems to be quite hospitable—and there are indications that the Plains were not always as barren as they are now, having been Shattered in some cataclysmic event. Whatever happened when humans showed up, it seems to me rather a leap to assume that they a) attempted to terraform the planet and b) failed. Either or both are possible—but neither is proven by a long shot, unless someone has a better WoB than I’ve found on the subject.
Heraldic Symbolism: The character icon is Pattern, of course, since we’re totally in Shallan’s head here. Shalash presides over the chapter, with her idealized penchant for creativity, honesty, Lightweavers, and blood. (Not sure blood has anything to do with it, though there certainly is plenty to be seen here.) Perhaps she reflects Shallan’s drawing skills, or perhaps she represents the destruction of all Shallan’s past drawings—all the collected Memories of her life up to this point.
Shipping Wars: Ship ahoy! Ship ahoy? No ships here, sir. Ain’t nobody here but us chickens, and we ain’t here neither.
A-roving, a-roving, since roving’s been my ru-i-in, I’ll go no more a-roving with you…at least until I see you in the comments below. Fair winds, and following seas, y’all! And… I’ll quit with all the sailor-y bits. Not sure where they come in. Or from.
Yalb lives!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She has been a fantasy lover since the age of eight, when her third-grade teacher loaned her his copy of The Hobbit. (Thanks, Mr. Hamilton!) She’s also a full-time wife & mom with degrees in engineering, literature, and chemistry. Nice combination, eh?
Argh! Shallan, remember! I swear, if we get to the end of Shallan’s flashback book and we STILL don’t know what the hell her back story is, or how, why and when Pattern was first attracted to her, I am going to lose my shit. Oh….we don’t learn any of those things by the end of this book, do we? Cleanup in aisle 3!
To me, Pattern saying “spren of him” seems to solidify that the evil red spren are not just of the Unmade (whatever the Unmade are) but of Odium himself, the big baddie.
When you talk about the various camps all working for different ends, you left out the Ghostbloods. We know that Gavilar thought they were behind his assassination (presumably), since he told Szeth to tell Thaidakar that he was too late, and Thaidakar was associated with the Ghostbloods by Amaram. But we still have no clear indication what the Ghostbloods are after. Presumably, Shallan will discover that in coming books. (Also, I assume that we will discover more about the Sons of Honor through Amaram and/or Taln). Then there is Taravangian and his society, who at least we understand their motivations and methods, even if we disapprove.
It seems pretty clear that Roshar can and does support human life, including farming and raising livestock. It’s unclear how much (if at all) Honor and Cultivation may have altered human biology to adapt to life on Roshar, (like The Lord Ruler adapted humanity on Scadrial after he made the ashmounts). The fact that the Shin have “round eyes”, living in a region protected from Highstorms, makes me wonder if the round Shin eyes are normal European human eyes, and the rest of Roshar have eyes that would seem slitted to us on Earth. Not sure, and the cover art so far hasn’t really answered definitively.
I’m pretty sure the title does refer to the drawing of Jasnah. Shallan refered to it as the day’s masterpiece back when she was drawing it.
About the plant and animal life, it has always seemed like aquatic life to me. The plants remind me of what you would see in a reef. Shallan’s shale bark drawing looks like it could be of an underwater palace. With that and all the crustaceans, I always wondered if it was a hint to something in the planet’s history or if it was just creative world building.
One thing that I find interesting about the spren is that there are groups watching humans. Both Pattern and Wyndle have others and they were the ones sent. Will there be more, are they there already? Of Honorspren, Syl alone went against the wishes of the Stormfather.
The speech doesn’t work as well if you change it, but I’m always annoyed when people use stupid to mean ignorant.
I too was disappointed that we haven’t seen the initial meeting of Shallan and Pattern. Perhaps that will come at the same time we discover her brother’s backstory on how he got involved, got the shardblade, etc.
Darn it! Sometimes I hate pregnancy brain. I had a great thought while re-reading this chapter yesterday. But I didn’t write it down, and it’s not been triggered by the summary yet. Grrrr… Posting to follow until my thoughts come back. But her whole
Really is true. We are all ignorant of something (often multiple things). What makes an ignorant person, is one who refuses to learn new things or, when presented with real facts, admit that they were wrong about something.
I have no problems admitting were I am ignorant: making fire, rebuilding cars, higher calculus, fashion designers, and a number of other topics. But I do have issues with ignorant people.
Alice, I think Pattern’s comment (which you quoted above) about the certainty (in Patern’s mind) that Shallan will not stop drawing also ties into the chapter title. I think Pattern was not limiting his definition of “drawing” to writing implement to paper. Rather, I think Pattern’s definition of drawing is broad enough to include the Lightweaving skills that Shallan uses throughout WoR. With that in mind, I think that the title could refer (as a secondary meaning) to Shallan’s success so far this day. She was able to get a wagon to use as her personal space and somewhat clean her injurues.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
(edited to fix the author of the recap)
One of the reason why Pattern has come so far, so fast is because Shallan has progressed very far with her “Oaths”. She has said two truths beyond the first Oath, which puts her ahead of Kaladin at this point in the story (with a 3rd one at the end of the book).
Just as Syl regains more memories as Kaladin progresses, so does Pattern. If anything, he is really catching up to where Shallan is already.
It makes sense that Pattern has come a long way in a short time. Much like Syl – as Kaladin changes his thoughts and behavior to become more “in sync” with an honorspren. As Shallan becomes more aware (and more willing to be aware) of the pattern (sorry) that has led to her current state/position/point in the story, Pattern becomes more coherent. If Shallan were for some reason to start blocking out the traumas (as Kaladin has in the arc with the king), I think that Pattern would begin to lose it again. Not that I think that particular plot device will repeat itself in the same way.
MDNY @1 – I didn’t name the Ghostbloods, because I was talking about them already, but it really frustrates me that I don’t know what drives them! Shallan assumes here that it’s greed, and while it may be for profit or for power… I’m not sure that’s all there is to it. They have off-worlder involvement, and that makes wealth a little questionable as a motive. Not that Shallan could know that yet, of course; her conclusion is logical, based on what she knows. It just drives me nuts that I don’t know enough about them either!
Bella @2 – Oh, good catch! Her first day there in Kharbranth, she drew her Memories of the city and of Yalb, and then it says, “The other two pictures had been warm-ups; this was the day’s masterpiece.” Nice callback.
@9 Wet- As I was reading your thoughts on the Ghostbloods and how we don’t know their motivation, it got me thinking on the Ghostbloods, the Sons of Honor, Nalan/Nin, and Taravangian. All these groups/individuals are acting in ways that we don’t like. We know the motivations for some of them, not for others, but ALL of them seem to act in a way contrary to the basic oaths of all Orders of the Knights Radiant: “Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before Destination. ”
Taravangian is killing hundreds, and leading to the deaths of thousands, for the “greater good”. Nalan/Darkness is killing poweful individuals, presumably to prevent a desolation (he says). Amaram betrayed Kaladin, killed his own loyal troops, and took his Shardblade, maybe partly out of greed but largely because he believed it was for the greater good, as well. We don’t know about the Ghostbloods at all. I assume that at least Mraize has an interest in what he believes is the Greater Good, since he is an off-worlder, but we don’t know enough about them yet, as you say.
Clearly there are variations among these 4 (Nalan, Taravangian, Ghostbloods, and Sons of Honor) in terms of how likeable, trustworthy, and worthwhile their goals are, but I find it interesting that all of them share an opposition to the basic oaths that all Radiants shared, adopting an “ends justify the means”-type approach.
Oh Alice, you crack me up!
Speaking of Pattern—he has come a long way in a relatively short time; it’s only a short time ago that he was bumbling about like a renegade roomba.
Now on to the comments…..
I still haven’t entirely figured out what a “lie” is for Pattern. It’s clear it’s not our common definition but how could we define it?
Part of it is about illusion, which fits one of Shallan’s abilities, and from before (or after?) we know that he also considers proverbial speech as lies.
Has anyone a good definition?
Btw I wholeheartedly agree about how aggravating it is, that we seem to scarcely know more about Shallan’s past than we do now.
@12
He seems to prefer Truths that are hidden by Lies for reasons of shame. Shallan’s first Truth, the one that unlocked her powers as a KR is “I am afraid”.
Yep. Lies, as defined by Pattern, seem to be the things we think or say to shield us from harsh realities.
And then, there’s also the Envisagers. I wonder where they fit in. Are they extinct?
MDNY @10. I do not beleive that the First Oath (Life before death. Strength before weakness. Journey before Destination) is opposite a Machiavellian philosophy (ends justify the means). Based on some comments that Brandon has previously made, I would not be surprised that one of the overiding tenets of a KR Order is the ends justify the means.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
@16 Andrew- In some respects you’re right, but let’s take Taravangian as an example. His methods are pure Ends justify the Means. He kills world leaders, intentionally causes chaos and death among nobility and commoner alike, murders hundreds (thousands?) in his “hospitals”, and hires the most lethal and unstable man in Roshar as his assassin. You would have a hard time convincing me that T is acting in accordance with the Radaints’ ideals. Most notably, Life before Death and Journey before Destination seem to go wholly against his actions.
For Amaram and the Sons of Honor, it’s harder to know, but Amaram’s actions (killing Kaladin’s squad and branding Kal a slave) seem to go against the spirit of the Oaths, particularly Journey before Destination: he believes that his having a shardblade is better than a common darkeyed soldier bearing it, but that is the epitome of Destination before Journey, because he never earned it.
I don’t know much about Nalan or the Ghostbloods, so I’ll hold off on further comments about them. But nothing I’ve seen so far indicates that the KR ever bypassed those core 3 oaths that all of them share. It is possible for them to act in a Machiavellian way, as you say, without contradicting those oaths, but I think that at least T and Amaram have clearly acted in manners that directly contradict the basic Oath, even though they believe they are acting for the Greater Good.
Now, might one Order have a more Machiavellian oath/method/belief? Sure, it’s possible (Skybreakers, anyone?). But I don’t think that any KR could act in a way that so clearly contradicts the first Oath, like the actions of T and Amaram do.
Maybe one of the reasons Pattern ended up with Shallan was just a matter of location and luck. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems like spren can’t physically enter our world in the manner of Pattern and Syl (and eventually Jasnah) just anywhere. Perhaps her family estates are near one of the places you can cross over so Pattern might have chosen her based on convenience as well as potential.
Of course arguably if he had chosen someone else then that person would be the character in this story and Shallan would be a minor character or have never survived her mother’s attack. As Garth Nix ponders, does the walker choose the path or the path the walker? Or the Sanderson the character :)
@18 JoeH42 – Hmmm, I don’t know about that. We know that humans can’t easily cross over except at certain spots, but it seems like spren can do it more easily. And it seems that that Syl was in the physical realm for a long time before she found Kal, she was just acting like a windspren.
Pattern said that Shallan’s lies drew him. Since we’ve only seen her flashbacks since Pattern already appeared, we still don’t know what those lies were, though possible her art was part of it. But there’s still something big in her early past, from before her mother tried to kill her, that we don’t have any clues about. It seems more likely something about her personally, rather than just a convenient location.
There’s also Lift. Lift was chosen by a spren council, so somehow they were following her before she was bonded. I think spren can come to the physical realm easily, even if they can’t affect it much, but they can observe things pretty much anywhere. And the Stormfather seems to be able to see almost all of Roshar pretty easily, too, though I’ll grant that he is a rather unusual case.
Re: Shallan’s lies – As I failed to remember while writing the above, Pattern also sees most forms of word-play as “lies”. A few chapters hence, he refers to metaphors as “delicious lies.” So I might be completely wrong about dark things in the past; it might just be that, as a family and/or particularly young Shallan, the Davars had a lot of fun with word games.
Honestly, I didn’t see any more reasons for Pattern following her, were needed, than what we were given. You just have the convergence of surviving a tragic and highly abusive childhood, with her love of wordplay and drawing. But we will see!
For that matter, just what kind of spren is Pattern? We know he is a Cryptic, but what kind of spren is that?
As for the line, “Warform, claimed by the Gods”, there is Word of Brandon that the Parshendi are partly of Odium and Cultivation. Can we look at the hostile or benign aspects of their nature to tell which part came from which Shard?
The Ghostbloods from off-world struck me as a kind of evil 17th Shard, or evil-Hoid, but I am not sure that idea will hold up.
10. MDNY Fantastic point about how all these groups are all acting contrary to the First Oath, and specifically Journey before Destination.
16. AndrewHB I have a hard time seeing how a Machievellian approach could be Honor-able. Strict and unyeilding I can see, but not Ends Justify the Means. Flesh out your idea a bit more and explain you are thinking.
We know that Shallan entertained her brothers with witty wordplay and “synchronising” conversations they couldn’t hear with funny lines. That and her drawing could have attacted Pattern.
@21: The problem with Shallan’s tragic childhood is that what we’ve seen of it all happened after she bonded Pattern (seeing as she already has a Shardblade) – so the question remains as to what made her already cracked before that point.
I seem to remember that somebody referred to the Cryptics as Liespren – Jasnah, perhaps?
MDNY @17 and ZenBossanova @21. I can think of 2 examples in story and one RL example where the philosophy “the ends justify the means” would not necessarily be inconsistent with the KR First Oath.
Example 1: Jasnah’s lesson to Shallan in WoK. She intentionally walked in a section of the city at night where there was known activities of muggings. She made sure that she was dressed to emphasize that she had wealth (and most likely had some of that wealth on her). Further, it was (from an outsider’s point of view) two “helpless” women. Jasnah’s full scope of her lesson was contingent upon her encountering these attackers. Once it became clear that they would attack Jasnah and Shallan, Jasnah did not merely defend herself and Shallan. She was dead set (pun intended) on killing these men. Remember, after she killed the first couple of attackers, the others tried to escape. Instead of letting them escape, Jasnah killed the others. For whatever her reasons, Jasnah felt that the death of all of the attackers (the ends) justified the manner in which she killed them (the means). Jasnah believed her ends also justified her decision to walk that route with the knowledge she had of that route (once again, the means).
Example 2. Adolin’s murder of Sadeas. While one could argue that the initial physical confrontation was unplanned, I think it is clear to Adolin that he eventually concluded that he had to kill Sadeas. He knew that the manner of the killing was un-Alethian. Nevertheless, Adolin felt the ends justified his actions.
RL example: Truman’s decision to drop the Bomb on Hiroshima. I think that Truman had reports of the potential destruction that the force of the Bomb would cause (In this case I mean the actual damage that the explosion would cause; not the effects of the radiation of the Bomb). Truman decided that such consequences were worth it. His advisors had told him that an assault on Japanese mainland would take months, if not years. The loss of American soldiers would be astronomical from such a campaign. The mindset of the Japanese during WWII was that they would not surrender until every last soldier was dead. Every inch would be require gallons of American’s blood. This was demonstrated by the slow and bloody progression that the Americans made in the Pacific islands.
I do not think any of the above 3 examples is automatically at odds with the First Oath.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
MDNY@1: off the topic of recent conversation but regarding eyes.
I’m pretty sure that it’s been stated (WOB?) that Alethi and others have an epicantal fold in their eyes so I’ve always assumed the round Shin eyes are simply eyes with no fold,eg European eyes as per your comments.
24. AndrewHB It sounds like we are differing about what “Ends Justify the Means” means. Jasnah killed those thugs entirely on purpose. Her lesson to Shallan was just killing two birds with one stone. …wow, just wow, I just looked this up on Wikipedia – “Consequentialism” – this is a far more detailed subject than I would have guessed. I can see why Shallan took so long getting back to Jasnah as to the right or wrongness of her actions. I still don’t think this is “Ends Justify the Means”, but I am not nearly as certain as I was before. Not certain at all.
25. helen79 I recall the same WoB about the epicantal fold among the non-Shin. It makes sense for people in an environment with a lot of wind and rocks to have that.
Would imagination be considered as “lies” by cryptics?
I think probably so. That’s why it’s so hard to figure out what Pattern values – he sees things so differently than we do!
23. Torvald Nom I see exactly what you mean now. Yes, Shallan did bond a spren before all the tragedy we know of her life. I don’t think for a moment her mother went from baking chocolate chip cookies to homocidal maniac with no warning whatsoever. However, Shallan is so very good at lying to herself, that we know nothing of life before her mother died. I have to suspect her parents were already pretty dysfunctional, at some level, before the murder.
@Alice
Thanks for pointing that out. I missed the timing issue previouly. It can’t be only the lies Shallan “told” herself about the murders. I’m expecting something much more ominous in her distant past than just word games, though. Shallan/the Davar family can’t have been unique in the entirety of Roshar for a love of word games or telling outlandish stories. Heh.
Heraldic Symbolism: Shalash as the Herald for this chapter works on several levels. I’d add Shallan’s creativity in bettering her travelling circumstances.
Spren Spotting: I’m betting spren of Cultivation are more willing to form Nahel bonds than spren of Honor in modern-day Roshar. I haven’t gelled a theory on the why aspect yet, perhaps it’s something related to Honor’s splintering. Elsecaller, Lightweaver and Edgedancer spren certainly appear to be more willing to jump into a Nahel relationship and work in teams to bring back the KR, unlike Syl being defiant and Stormfather grudgingly accepting Dalinar. Renarin? Where are you? We need more input about your situation.
As to the “…spren of him” line, yep, Odium must be the him. Other than that, no clue. Could the seals be weakening, Odium gaining more influence on Roshar, and the Unmade escaping the bore? Naw, that’s way too close to some other series I read.
I was discussing the issue of Shallan bonding a spren with my daughter and I mentioned that we only had one memory of her mother before the murder, hwere she was sitting in the garden. But my daughter corrected me, that was what Shallan told Wit was her idea of a perfect day.
So, we have NO memories of Shallan’s mother at all, except the murder. The more I think about that, there has to be far more to Shallan’s story than we have heard.
One can only speculate at this point on the reason why certain individuals were chosen for spren-bonding. Eyes were on both the Kholin and Davar families. The first because of their prominence, the second for currently unknown reasons. Both were, however, old, distinguished families from the two most important eastern kingdoms – even if the Davars didn’t occupy a current position of eminence in Jah Keved. It is possible that both families traced their descent to KRs, and that descent made them better prospects for finding new KR candidates. A ‘wilder’ speculation is that Lin Davar visited the Nightwatcher to seek a blessing for Shallan who may have been very ill as a child. He was granted that blessing, but was told that she would ultimately turn against him. The above speculative scenario is designed to resemble the means by which Lift acquired her Wyndle spren. Such spren-bonding stands in contrast to that of Jasnah and Kaladin. Jasnah had prepared herself intellectually for such bonding, while Kaladin’s strong sense of honor and responsibility attracted the honor-spren, Syl.
Sorry, that last post was mislabeled as being from “STORMBLST”. In actuality the moniker that I use here is ‘STBLST’ as a kind of shorthand for ‘stormblessed’.
While I’m at it, someone had questioned my assumption that the Aimians would be transformed into Voidbringers by the Everstorm. My basis is the statement by the Stormfather near the end of WOR that the storm would transform the ancient ones. I took that to include all the sentient beings who had lived on Roshar prior to the advent of the humans – not just the Parshmen/Parshendi.
@33 Your comment is one of the reasons why I wish we knew more about the Aimians. Looking at the map of the Silver Kingdoms epoch, Aimia seems like one of the ten kingdoms, which leads me to believe that the Aimians weren’t always stigmatized.
With ten Heralds and ten specialized kingdoms, it seems possible that one Herald looked after the people and mission of each kingdom. What we’ve heard from ‘Taln’ suggests that each Herald has a specific area of expertise they expect to use while preparing humanity for a desolation. What did Aimia specialize in and how did it go wrong? Is it possible that the Aimians were recruited to the voidbringer cause during the Last Desolation?
Has anyone ever asked if all the Heralds are human? I seem to remember some information suggesting they’re not all native to Roshar.
Since the Parshendi were closer to the Cognitive Realm, and were weaker for sprenbonding, I suspect that the same is true for Aimians. The do seem to be closer to the Cognitive realm, if only because their shadows point in the reverse direction. Does this suggest they are weaker for spren bonds?
Zen @@@@@ 35:
That makes sense. Syl told Kaladin something to the effect of “I help you and you help me.” It seems probable that humans can be so helpful to spren because of how “far” they are from the Cognitive Realm. Perhaps this gives the spren more of an anchor in the Physical. Does this means humans have more to gain from a sprenbond than the others?
If the spren gave special attention to House Kholin, then maybe the only reason Adolin hasn’t bonded a spren is because he hasn’t cracked (yet)?
@36 I’m not sure Adolin hasn’t bonded a spren. The revulsion he starts to feel in WOR, and the loss of the Thrill, seem consistent with what Dalinar started experiencing in WOK. I think Adolin MAY be in the early stages of a bond, though I’m not speculating yet on what order he might be in.
@Ways.
I’m convinced as well that Cultivation hasn’t forbidden spren from bonding with men. (I kinda talked about it in the Ym interlude but got sidetracked by Edgedancers.) Not in the same way as Honor has. Honor just stright up forbid his spren from going near humans which is why Syl had to disobey him.
This actually brings up something interesting. It seems that as long it’s honorable Syl can disobey orders. But Highspren, which I suspect are the spren of Skybreakers, can’t disobey orders so. They follow the letter of the law. Unless Skybreakers are the one group of KR that used the deflection of the rest to stay hidden. There can’t be any Highspren around bonding with humans to make Skybreakers. (Though I can see the Skybreakers doing being the order that used the others for cover because unless it was written in as law they wouldn’t have to follow the other orders. Thus making it possible for them to continue on.)
So at first I didn’t think Szeth is a KR in truth yet because Nightblood isn’t a spren, and that might be why Naln had to give a honorbalde in order to make him part of the Skybreakers. But now I’m not so sure…
And this time I get distracted by Skybreakers.
But yeah, even the spren who we see might want to bond with Elhokar and watch him are Cryptics. So until Dalinar bonds with Stormfather, all of the other spren who we see bond are on Cultivations side of the board. We have Edgedancers, Truthwathers, Elsecallers, and Lightweavers. I think the only on Cultivations side we haven’t seen yet are Dustbringers.
(Dustbringers are my other guess at which order stayed when the others gave up there oath. My three guesses are Skybreakers, Dustbringers or Stonewards. Stonewards becuase they might be too hardheaded to give up there oath, just like Taln.)
QUESTION
How much more powerful is Nightblood than a a regular Shardblade?BRANDON SANDERSON
I haven’t actually quantified that in my own mind so can’t give an accurate comparison at this point. I will say that when he is fully consuming Investiture he can do some really freaky things.
FOOTNOTE
In the past Brandon has described Nightblood as being “magnitudes more invested than a shardblade”.
and at a different time he said
Nightblood is a very unique kind of Shardblade, but IS a Shardblade.
Theoryland link
Actually, what Nightblood sounds a bit like, is a more cheerful version of Calcifer from Howl’s Moving Castle. When he gets fully charged, Kaladin is going to need all the help he can get.
I do think Nightblood is a spren, even if it is not one from Honor, Cultivation, or Odium. It would be from the Shard Endowment, so in essence it is pure skill. While Szeth might be surgebinding, I would not call him a Knight Radiant, since he has taken no oaths.
As for Dustbringers, I strongly suspect Adolin will be our first. But that is my speculation. But I am impressed with your reasoning why we have only seen one bond from the Honor side, at least until Dalinar.
I’ve never read or seen Howl’s Moving Castle, but I have heard that’s it good and I’ve liked other things from that author. Maybe I should take a look at it.
Good point about Nightblood being from the Shard of Endowment. And if all shardblades are spren, then Nightblood must be a spren. I wonder if this means that Nightblood has another form like Pattern or Syl. Or if because he’s a spren from Endowment that he only has the sword form even in Roshar. I wonder if this means that Nightblood can grant the power to use Surges….
Speaking of Nightblood. I still want to know how he got on Roshar? And why he isn’t with Vasher? And where is Vivenna? The last of these questions really gets me bitting my nails because Vivenna started out as my least favorite character and became my favorite character by the end of the book. She grows so much and now I’m worried that BAD THINGS have happened to her because where is she? Last we saw she was Vasher and Nightblood. They are on Roshar. So I ask again Sanderson, where is Vivenna? (I have feels about this. So many feels.)
Yeah, hi I go off on tangents sometimes.
Adolin, I feel like either he’ll be Dustbringer or a Stonewarder. I don’t know if I want to put my chips down on either of those two orders without more information yet. I could see him working in either of those orders. I suspect that he’ll be one of the first to bring his “dead” shardblade back to life. And if he does it could be any of the orders because it would depend on the type of spren the blade originally was.
But that could just be wishful thinking because he has such a close connection to his blade. What with the long talks before duels and the fact that he doesn’t presume to name the blade because it must already have one. Granted he thinks that the original Knight who had the blade gave it the name and not that it would just have the name but still, point still stands.
@40: But you have Honorblades that are NOT spren. They spren copied what the Honorblades could do in order to help their KR. So if Nightblood was made as a copy of an Honorblade, it (he) is still not a spren. But is a magically aware sword, thus a Shardblade. Guess because Endowment works differently than Honor, Cultivation, or Odium. We call the blades and plate “Shards”, but if they are made of sprens, a more accurate name would be “Sprenblade.” Okay, semantic argument that I have not invested a ton of thought and time into.
If Honor and Cultivation worked the same, my bet is that the Honorblades would talk too.
WOB has said Nightblood’s journey to Roshar and separation from Vasher is “interesting”, but that it takes place in between all the books. So he is not sure where he will share the tale. It doesn’t ‘fit’ anywhere currently. (This is from the Goodreads G&A, I believe.)
He has said that Vivenna is not on Roshar, but has not elaborated beyond that. Yet I do believe she is okay. I’m still not clear on the timeline of the two worlds. So she has possibly already lived a full life and died peacefully of old age already.
I’m saddened when I think about all the dead spren blades. I really want there to be a way to make them whole again. But WOB has said it would be VERY difficult. Maybe it will be a plot point of the second set of books. Because I just don’t see it becoming one for the first 5. If I’m proven wrong, I’ll gladly eat that humble pie in the Stormcellar (or JordanCon.)
Rereading Dalinar’s bonding to the Stormfather makes me wonder at the timing of Renarin’s bonding. In order to reach the roof, Dalinar has to summons his blade to cut the crem away. It doesn’t bother him to hold the thing. Five seconds after bonding the Stormfather, he has to re-summons the blade to break the bond – and hears the scream inside his head.
Then there’s Renarin. He had to carry his new blade around for a week to bond it. Yes, he seem uncomfortable, but he could still hold the blade. Then during the massive duel, he tries to help, but the screams inside his head hurt. So sometime between attaining his blade and the duel, he becomes a full KR. I’m guessing Glys was already around him before he gained his blade. I really want to know more here. But his flashback book is not set until the second set, and it probably won’t answer that question.
@41
I can’t believe that I’ve never thought about the Honorbaldes being self aweare blades as well. I just kinda assumed they weren’t because Jezerin’s blade didn’t scream at Kaladin when he picked it up. But then again Pattern didn’t scream at Kal when he used him because Pattern hasn’t been used hurt the way the other blades have by being used against his oath. (I think Kal was still connected to Syl when he was in the chasms with Shallan but the bond was weak.)
I have to admit that I’m still not sure if the honorblades are self aweare talking blades. If so Jezerin’s blade would be just as hurt as the other blades because his oath has been broken for even a longer time than the other Shardblades.
It sounds like the Honorblades and Shardblades don’t have to be bonded to be used. Navani does point out to Danilar that until the Shardblades were placed with decortive gems they couldn’t be summoned or dismissed. And even then they didn’t have enough of a bond with the person carrying them to scream in there ear unless that person was a bonded to another spren.
Maybe it has to do with the amount of Stormlight being given to the spren that’s in the Shardblade. Since surgebinders generally can’t seem to help but hold somestormlight in them.
OMG, I’m an idiot!! The screams Szeth hears in his head aren’t from his mind– IT’S FROM THE HONORBLADE! He wasn’t just going mad. The sword was screaming at him because it was being against it’s purpose.
Yeah, I agree with you the Honorblades can talk as well. (Yes most of this was thought out just now, without the book infront of me.)
I’m pretty impressed with Renarin. He just assumed that everyone heard those screams as well and tried to work through it as much as he could. Can you imagine someone screaming in your ear the entire time you trying to learn how to fight for the first time. And not even helpful screams, it sounds like just a long horrible wail. He’s made of sterner stuff then people thought, that’s for sure. I hope we get to se more of Glys in later books.
I’m going assume Vivenna is alive until proven otherwise. If Vasher can live for a stupidly long time, so can she. I’m currently working with a Headcanon at that the end of books she going to find Vasher, kick some sense into him so he stops with his mop-fest and get him back to being Batman.
No Vivianna? I was looking at all the ardents and trying to figure out if one of them was her. Who knows how many hundred years it has been since the events of Warbreaker. Vivianna could have simply lived a long life with him, and then passed on.
42. kei_rin Excellent point about the screams that Szeth hears. I had not correlated them with the Honorblade. That makes a lot of sense. I think we have to think of Honorblades as major spren of some kind, or slivers of Honor/Cultivation.
While Jezerin’s blade may be broken/dead, at least Jezerin is still alive to revive it. I wonder though, can he still summon it? If he died, could he summon it there?
@42, 43 I don’t know guys. Szeth hears the screams all the time but Renarin only hears them when his blade is summoned.
You might have a point about Honorblades screaming, though. Isn’t it mentioned that Dalinar bonded the “madman’s” blade? And it screamed. So either it wasn’t an Honorblade or Honorblades scream.
I do think that Renarin knew that he could hear his blade because of Glys. If he thought that happened to everyone wouldn’t he casually mention it sometime?
@43
Gald I wasn’t the only out on Vivenna watch. :)
@44
Actually, I think that if Renarin thought that eveyone could hear the screams he’d be less likely to talk about it because he doesn’t want to seem weaker than everybody else. Especially since he’s already selfconscious about the fact that he has a blood weakness.
The Alethi don’t talk about a lot. Dalinar makes Adolin uncomfortable talking about the Thrill when it just the two of them. Renarin would button it when it comes to talking about anything that would make him seem weaker than the others.
I could see Szeth going mad for hearing the screams everytime he used the blade. I guess we’ll see in the books if the Honorblades work like we think. I don’t know if we can use Dalinar’s blade as a test subject because I think Wit switched out Taln’s Honorblade for a average Shardblade.
If the Shin have all the remaining Honorblades, does that mean the WoK prologue took place in Shinovar?
Or did they just keep them safe as they move around until they were able to settle after the last Desolation?
…
New Loony Theory here:
Could this be why the Shin revere stone? They recovered the blades from the stone ground. So they knew the Heralds had walked there. Over the ages, the reverence for the one place of stone becomes a taboo on walking on any stone.
I will look for evidence of this in Szeth’s book.
I assumed that they took possession of the blades after the fact. Because the prologue takes place in a place that’s ground is made of stone. The Honorblades were driven point first into the stone ground. Though I suppose after 4500 years things could have changed in Shinovar. I mean the Shattered Plains wheren’t always shattered so why couldn’t Shinovar be different.
I also have theory that the Shin have been collecting Shardblades that the Radients abandoned.
Dalinar’s vision back in WoK showed thousands of blades being left at Feverstone Keep and he noted that it was a lot more blades then are accounted for in present day. Which leaves the question of where did all those other blades go? And nobody would suspect the peace loving Shin of hoarding Shardblades.
Another Loony Theory:
Also I’m now wondering if the Stoneshamans that Szeth talks about are the hidden order of Radiants? This theory only works if the Skybreakers aren’t the order that kept their oath afther the Recreance. Could be another reason why others of the Shin don’t walk on stone because that’s something only the Stoneshamans (Stonewards? Dustbringers?) d0…
Book three! Oh how I wait for you!
@44 The blade Taln brings along to the war camps behaves differently than an honor blade. I’m fairly certain Hoid/Wit swapped Taln’s honorblade for a regular shardblade.
@47 In Dalinar’s vision of Feverstone Keep, it wasn’t thousands of blades that were left, it was hundreds. That’s still more blades than are currently known publicly, but not quite on the scale that you’re talking about. No idea where they are, though probably the Ghostbloods have at least a couple.
As for the Shin getting the honorblades, I always assumed that they obtained them and then brought them to Shinovar, rather than Shinovar being the spot where the blades were left. Shinovar is so isolated from the rest of Roshar, and not usually affected by Highstorms, plus it isn’t really rocky like the rest of Roshar, so the location in the prologue doesn’t seem to fit with Shinovar. But I guess the Shin people somehow found the blades and kept them. No idea how that happened.
@47 & 49 – Dalinar’s vision only showed hundreds… but it also showed only two Orders. There should have been seven more, and even if they didn’t all abandon their spren in sword-shape, it sure seems like some of them would have.
Hey, here’s a real looney theory (that I honestly don’t believe would hold up to scrutiny at all): maybe the Soulcaster fabrials are the abandoned spren of some of the Lightweavers or Elsecallers.
Ooh, fascinating theory Wetlandernw!
witsquared @@@@@ 48 – There’s actually WoB that it wasn’t Hoid who swapped out the blades (see 17th Shard thread here:
http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/14124-who-has-talns-blade/), although it is pretty clear that the two blades aren’t the same (other quotes in that thread highlight reasons why there are, in fact, two different blades).
@49 &50
Thanks for the correction about the number of Shardblades.
@50
I can’t remember if it’s in the back of the book in the section on fabrials or if a conversation that Navani had explaining one of her new fabrials where they talked about trapping spren to make new fabrials work. I think was the back of the book.
And if that’s how they make new fabrials work I could see Soulcasters being Lightweaver and Elsecaller spren. That could also explain why some Soulcasters seem to work better for particular transformations.
kei_rin @53 – It’s actually in one of Navani’s notebook pages – which some amazing fans translated, and I didn’t realize could be translated until I was in the middle of WoR. Come to think of it, the biggest argument against the theory is Navani’s suggestion that it might be possible to fix the settings on Shallan’s Soulcaster, which didn’t seem to make sense if it’s a dead-ish spren. But… maybe it can be, or maybe she’s basing that on her other work with fabrials and no one has had to try to fix a cut Soulcaster before.
@52 thanks Jeremyguebert, I had not noticed the blade differences. What an intriguing set of circumstances
I was browsing through this and noticed the A-Roving quote. Where’d you first hear that song?
Will @56 – Oh, my. I probably first heard it before I was born. :) I grew up with the song; it was on an album my dad had back in the long-ago. “Songs of the Sea” IIRC; I replaced his old LP with a new CD a few years back… Now I’m all nostalgic again!